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MesajKonu: semboller   Salı Şub. 22, 2011 6:24 pm





Individual symbols Idaho 4
list is comparing Idaho Script with Indus Script and some of them are
much alike. That together with the number of symbols seems to be clear
evidence that seafarers from Indus culture visited Idaho. Maybe they
were searching for metal and precious stones

Script, Indus Script, symbol script, syllable language, cupmark,
algebraic meaning, Indus symbolism, moon cycle, urn-symbol, offer
cauldron, bear paw, Boöetes, Bearwatcher, snake, dragon, Serpent Mound,
| Idaho 1 | Idaho 2 | Idaho 3 | Idaho 4 a | Randall | Idaho 5 | Indus Script | Early ships|
Law of The Naked | Time Law | Bronze Age | Megalith Ideas | Interpreting Script | Scandinavian Golden Age | Kimberley Girls | Sitemap | Home | Links | Family pages |

On this Thunderbird Rock we find the clearest symbols of Indus script
figure in centre seems to be of the same kind as the Indus Script
symbol. Generally in North American symbolism they used the symbol
Thunderbird. We can call the deep clear Indus symbols on this rock First
Generation Idaho Script. Most of the "standardised" glyphs we find on
this rock among the pictures I have from Snake River.
These are easy to see and copy. But most
of the lava boulders have script that must be rubbed into film or
pictured in night-light if we want an exact documentation. But for my
preliminary interpreting the pictures are enough. I cannot travel around
and must use photos as the best documentation.
I name the freer copied Indus symbols on
the boulders Second Generation Idaho and Third Generation Idaho is of
course the local inventions if we want to make categories. But before we
start we must state that there are no readable texts, however
explaining the glyphs and ideograms one by one give a feeling what it
was all about. Secondly let us start with some essentials about ancient
scripts and rock carvings
Normally I use glyph = defined script
symbol … ideogram = pictorial idea /concept … symbol = undefined small
sign. In the early ancient symbol script and syllable languages
are some rules that we should now when we look at unknown texts.
Figures that are filled or negative are on "the other side" and
generally below ground or invisible. Metal they mark with dashed lines.
Dashing or painting figures make them different from the normal
reference: Sometimes they use in fact "…" too more than 6000 years ago.
In Scandinavia they mark "the other side
or time" wit double lines as for instance winter half year. They mark
the beginning of winter season with two big dots … and the beginning of
summer season with one smaller dot of course alternatively an empty
little boat like in Egypt.
In Scandinavia the old integers build on
1 to 6 times 2 alternatively 1 to 12. They counted integers and
fractions in geometric series like 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 or 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16
alternatively series 1, 3, 6, 9,12. Observe that in the world there
were several systems so we have to know the local culture behind.
Initially were the series in language
"one, two, many/ several" and in grammar singular, dualis and plural.
That means one symbol is the infinitive, two symbols is the ongoing action and three symbols is the idea / concept.
For instance is single wave line = flow … double line is river … and
three lines are water, ocean or water-god. In the beginning there were
no grammar with tenses so the action was pictures with doubled symbols.
I find it natural to assume that the
great cultures Sumer, Indus and Egypt followed the same pattern in
creating the syllable language in 4th millennium. That means the symbols are generally a syllable consonant -- vowel or vowel -- consonant with some exceptions and even consonant - vowel - consonant. Some of the symbols could be used as ideograms since they were extracted from some known feature.
We see much of that in Sumerian, i.e.
before 2000 BC while the Egyptian syllable language is covered by later
inventions and the Indus script we do not know much about. The phonetic
system covered it all in late Bronze Age and we can not use rules from
that on the syllable languages so working with them is much of

The same rock from another direction with the umu-ti-symbol
this rock are many standardised glyphs we for sure can se are from the
Indus Script. Some well-educated person must have visited the place and
wrote down this message. It must have been a novelty even for the writer
since the only samples we have are made on clay tablets and tokens in a
standardised size. Here they are "king size" and without the order of a
Normally we think those bigger culture
influences smaller and the rural side of the world. Small influence in
the other direction is harder to put a label on. Still for instance in
for instance in Egyptian noble tombs we find items that can be traced to
small cultures far away.
Symbols like the following row indicates
abstract thinking and organisation we normally meet in city cultures:
Exception is my province with organised writing even in a rural society.
We have to remember that all people were furnished with the same
capacity of thinking. But mankind is lazy and uses that capacity only on
demand when necessity forces to develop things. It is always easier to
borrow from other cultures and adapt it to the local cultural
In the following I describe mixed the
different generations of symbols in Idaho. There is no point in dividing
into categories from the material I have and the time span is fairly

The cupmark or little handmade
hole defined by the diameter is the most numerous rock carvings in the
world. In logic of geometry it is a point and in words "there is". It
could be used for units as well as for drawing figures that are airy or
above ground.
A line is many points in a row. If they
are separate in a line they are identical individual points in a row and
the length could be counted in points and represent time. We can give
the points an understood algebraic meaning and give shape to the
line and add more meaning. It is the same method as in mathematics when
we use letters to represent or be icons for hidden values.
The encircled point could be whatever we
will associate to it as for instance "an eye", the sun and whatsoever.
The bigger cupmark means that it is an opening to underground or under
In Snake River Valley SRV the strokes
are made equal long and we see some system behind it that is like what
we know from the Indus = black and whit figures borrowed from Asko
Parpola. There are finds of around 450 symbols in Indus, but not so many
different symbols since there are several variations of symbols.
Then we have to think of their numbers
that could be the long stroke is 1 and the others maybe 1/2, 1/4, 1/8
and 1/16. A line in slight angle means "beginning to" and in Scandinavia
it is derived from the division of the circle in 16 parts. The line in
angle means "turning point" and it is understood that we follow the

…If there is a carrier line the strokes are enclosed to a category. If
the strokes are units the line could be the carrier. The symbol is also
used for an ear of seed. Some goods were surely put on a string in a
standardised way we know that from old systems of measurement. In an
economy of bartering they needed some standards of course.
… in Scandinavia this symbol used to mark likeness or conjunction, i.e. equal with
the glyph is derived from compasses that surely was needed for making
the perfect circle. We know similar symbols in Minoan and Middle East
cultures. The three stokes in the circle could mean "mountain" and also
three stones of the fire place. The mountain was time mark and so the
fire-ritual and the symbol below is "fire-place".

maybe this shape marks a year and the little tongue marks the
beginning. In the Indus year every season began with fire ritual
according to Rigveda. In Scandinavian rock carvings they mark the
beginning of season with a cupmark alternatively a little empty boat.
Maybe the circle / oval with strokes means the first month in season and
then especially the growing season

The circle enclosed one unit and we can
make it a standard or something else by giving it some algebraic value.
Usually people connect ancient circles to the sun and sun-cult without
any proof. The sun as such have no value and mankind has been interested
only in the life giving "beams". Today we call it photon flow but
already in the Egyptian symbolism we see the beams as flow of units. We
see beams around also on some circles and then they surely meant the
sun. But for everyday life the moon and its cycle was the pace giver of
People were interested in the sun as
counter of days or nights. It is like the big hand on the clock while
the moon is the short. In Scandinavia the plain circle was used to
picture quarter of a year in some places. But the main symbolism is the
crossed circle that is used for a year, half a year, a quarter of a
year. So they were symbolising Time and not the sun as such. We can also
say that Time was their god, as it is still today in our world.
… These symbols means then "pair of moons" and in the right case divided in fortnights.
Furthermore they divided in 3 seasons in the monsoon environment. In
Indus symbolism number 3 and 6 are frequent in ritual astronomy in which
the zodiac /animal round was divided in 6 and the moons were seen as
pairs. There are signs of the same in early Egyptian and Sumerian
practical astronomy.
we only concentrate on the outline we get an orbit or uniform motion
and the length and duration has to be understood. A circle with a dot
gives the concept a reference point. In some cases they add a point or
something on, inside or outside the circle. That is the starting point
of the understood circulation. We can also see it in the poetic way as
an eye and even as the sun. Then we have to understand everything behind
the icon.
The use of the circle for a quarter or
as orbit in circular motion implies that we / they knew that the sun /
or earth make circular motion depending on our observation point.
Otherwise it would be pure abstract logic. But when we picture the year
as a motion coming back to one point the shape of a circle would be
natural. Only in few cases we see a spiral that pictures the real motion
of earth in Time that never reach the same point again. But they used
also the square as model in places where it was natural to divide in
four seasons as for instance in Scandinavia.
In India the square occurs too. We can not know how they taught. But in Indus symbolism
we see in some seal the god / idol and above the head is a wheel with
six spokes. That surely pictures the Indus Time Wheel…. See The Naked Gangaur

9000 year old painting of the moon's cycle from Canchal Mahoma Spain
1 and 3 are the less visible nights before and after wane. Fig. 2 is
full moon and maybe Fig. 4 should read "moon", i.e. 29,5 days as the moon cycle. We meet the same symbol in the Egyptian calendars where it in some cases also could be the Saros Cycle of 18,61 years.
From this example we see the natural
symbolism in Fig 1 and 3. We can note some kind of standard and
conventions about practical astronomy in occasional European artefacts
from the 10000 -- 30000 years before present time. Many symbols surely
"wandered around the world" with travelling people discussing astronomy.
At least for sailors and navigators the stars were essential. They had
to know how the starry sky appeared wherever they travelled.
Surely it was convenient to draw the
oblong figure instead of the circle. Then it also gave the special
meaning to the symbol. As mentioned in pre-Vedic time, i.e. before 2000
BC they counted the moons in pair. They surely even divided the time in
two natural fortnights.

New Moon was the most frequent turning point of a moon period and the
Sumerian Inanna was the model for many moon goddesses. The symbol for
wane and new are international and used often in the subtropics besides
the horizontal bow symbols
For the circle with dots see "umu ti" in Idaho 2

Knowing about time or we should write
"space-time" has always been essential for mankind. Knowledge helped
them foresee what should and would happen in time and space. Maybe we
sometimes can see that their leaders used knowledge for their own gain.
That would only be humanlike and up top the individual mind. But I
suppose that the mind of many would outnumber the dictator in time.
The horseshoe shape we see on many
stones for instance in the passage grave in Gavrinic, Carnac Bretagne
but also in other places. On some stone we see many bows over a pillar. I
suppose that it pictures the "moon turn" in which some days are open
since the moon is invisible. They simply counted turns to get the values
for the moon cycle and fortnight.
We know for sure that they knew about
the 18,61 years Saros Cycle before ca 3100 BC. From that follows that
they also knew about eclipses of the moon. They could predetermine them
at least in places where local astronomers followed the knowledge and
made continuous observations of their own. Knowledge frees from fear in
most cases and humankind has observed the sky since thinking began. Moon
cycle and comets would not shake many trousers I presume.
It is far to early for me to conclude
the kind of local astronomy. But the pictures I have do not show
advanced local astronomy so far. However the occurrence of some ritual
rocks and the symbolism tell us that they planned their year influenced
by the Indus Culture. That means the moon and at least some leading
asterism became the lead of the year.
That kind of guiding star needs only a
simple observation place and knowledge of how to follow one star in the
night sky. It will pass different points during the year depending on
the latitude. That has to be decided locally. But one observation would
be enough as model for future.
Most important is that the up and down
shaped U was used as number unit in Egyptian, Sumerian, Greek and maybe
other cultures. The short stroke read "i" or "one"

One swallow does not make a summer …however often we find only one
sample of an special image in a place … but sure the motif with the
"boiler" feed curiosity. We know very little about Chinese high sea
ships during Bronze Age. They think they were of the same type as the
riverboats with broad cut off stern and stem but higher than at the
riverboat. … see more on ritual carvings

We do not know anything
about a "dragon" in stem. They have found rock carvings on Hawaii
showing high stem and possibly a dragon. Still we do not know much about
the boat in entire Asia. We see much Egyptian influence in Indian and
Polynesian boats of today.

the "roof" symbolises heaven or maybe the circumpolar stars that was
the upper sphere of the gods … and it is maybe still. In the glyph below
with the trisection we see it look much like the Egyptian symbol for
heaven. The "Urn" they name Coma Berinece nowadays but it looks much
like some round vessel on my star map. It was suitable as opposite
fix-stars around 2000 BC after Head of Serpent and before Bearwatcher.

…if we firstly see this as a pot it could be asterism urn, but more
often just some vessel. The big amphora and other storing containers
were necessary during the seasons and naturally also when transporting
goods. In Sumerian and Indus symbolism we see many water carriers and it
was naturally an important invention in everyday life. The "Urn" was in
fact the major mean for creating cities that could store food for later
We have also to be open for the function as pot and boiler and with
all synonyms we can think of. The glyphs are often furnished with wings
and Randall suggests that it mean size of vessel. It could also be that
they under a period named season as an Urn and then marked the three
different seasons.
We can also see it as an outline and then it is a connection between opposite points / stars.

Second Generation light rock carvings

"As far as three seasons, one would not see a fall in
such canyon country. Sage is the most prevalent brush in this country
and second being juniper. These vary little in foliage in the seasons.
Grass is green and seed barring plants very little through the year in
this temperate country".
Ritual Age solstice and equinoxes were important turning points in the
year. In Europe the Celts found that the dates half-way between were
better division. In last millennium we got the trisection in three
terminuses from Candlemas or winter thing, summer thing and law thing in
October that lasted to our time.
In Ritual Age they maybe followed the
stars and time more rigidly than in later times when they had to follow
the weather. The Indian climate, subtropics and monsoon climate have
sharper turn points and trisection was the natural order.
In several rock carvings we see three
symbols with different shape. Maybe they wanted to point out three
different entities or seasons.
…The rock with the three "bear-paws" shows clear trisection.and the cross strokes tell us that they are virtual reality. Then we can suggest that they symbolise Boötes / Bearwatcher
that was current after 1700 BC. We know from Scandinavia that they used
the opposite asterism to asterism of spring equinox for determining
beginning of the season … Still today Church determines the beginning of
ritual year as first moon after spring equinox. Most of the world use
the traditional calendar they developed after 4000 BC.
The conclusion is then that they used
the bright star Arcturus as fix star and followed that the entire year.
Since we see the Indus influence and three of them we can assume that
they celebrated three seasons and knew where the star was at that time.
By now I have note half a dozen rock carvings showing the 3-symbolism at
Snake River Valley. One example is the three entities symbolised with
different connected symbols … se also Bear Dance

Local symbolism but we see little of the original Indus ideas here

maybe we should read the first Idaho figure from right with the empty
bowl, next season the bowl with growth and the last the winter store.
The Indus trisected symbol is under the heaven meaning the divided
Animal Round. Next symbol maybe is "a round that continues after the New
Year point".
In the collection of pictures there are
only a few sun-symbols with beams. The one with a point in centre is
maybe more poetic showing the "heavens eye" = the sun. But the three
circles with beams maybe mean moons.

One wave-line shows infinite movement in
time and as verb it is the infinitive. The symbol is on the same rule
as mentioned in the beginning. In Scandinavian ancient language I set
the wave LA--LA-LA while the saw-tooth is IA-IA-IA and the short string
fits in places with seemingly written lines.
As verb two parallel wave-lines is
"running water" and as noun a river. Three parallel lines are the water
as noun such as seas and even the water god. In Sumerian symbolism we
see Enki/ Ea steps up on the original hill. Above him flows the heavenly
river Watergate drawn with two lines and we see fish jumping.
In Egyptian symbolism they usually use
the saw-tooth line that perhaps was easier to draw. But in Scandinavian
symbolism it seems that they use that for time. The logic shows it with
two turning points and we can count the flow in units. We can also
assume the difference between material and abstract flow.
The longer wave-line is for sure sometimes meant as a snake.
But often it is marked with a head and sometimes also a tail. Special
feature in American snake drawing is that we see a parrot at the mouth.
That connects it to the Old World with a bird on a pole in front of
Water-snake. These are among the symbols that show ritual influence from
the Old World.
There are several snakes including
Dragon on the night sky and naturally it could mean something else such
as a real snake. The snake expresses definite flow since it has length,
beginning and end. It is like the Scandinavian ritual ships that are
furnished with symbols "from -- to" in stem and stern.
In the animal round the Watersnake /
Hydra symbolises the womb of the earth and it begins at the sowing point
Cancer and ends at the harvest symbol Scorpio. Along the Watersnake
there is symbols for watering, picking, sowing, waiting for growth and
the Bearwatcher guard the new growth in fact In Sumer and some other
places we see instead the Archer guarding the Lady Virgo and we should
understand "the Little One" below.
Maybe the symbol "Turtle and Snake came
from India to China" and the Turtle is of course Cancer. In the climate
of monsoon they developed the heavenly dragon symbolising the
heavenly waters. In China they still make space between skyscrapers so
the Dragon can fly between the house and leave moisture outside the
In East Asia they have still the sense
of poetry since they have the pictorial script and speak in pictures and
flowers so to speak. They develop the other half of the brain.
Westerners somehow manage to live without fantasy and imagination. The
Dragon on top of the night sky is a good symbol for the heavenly Dragon =
the Monsoon.
Even Americas have the Snake. In south
the feathered Quetzalcoatl that naturally can fly like the snake in the
sky and it is big try co let the eye catch it on the night sky. In north
they have the Serpent Mound in Ohio biggest man made serpent in
the world. The embankment is 405 m/ 1330 ft long, 1,3 m/ 4 ft high and
about 6 m/ 18 ft across. It has an egg in the mouth.
There are rock carvings in many places
in America and in some cases the egg is in the other end. It shows the
fertility space-time and to ask if it is influence from India becomes
natural. In Indus symbolism it sometimes means the upper square or the
always-visible stars.

In SRV we find squares alone or in
merged figures, but no the clear "heavenly square" as far I can see.
Otherwise to associate to fence is easy and it could be just a logic
symbol with some algebraic meaning. The parted square means the entire
year in halves and the cross stroke marks "the other half"
The grid could be a net, a field
or partitioning something like harvest or fields. Especially in
inundation cultures it was custom to part the fields in the beginning of
season. Even in Scandinavia we have example of small Celtic fields and
in other cases indication of calculation with fields for a certain

Bende 1 Para Vardı.
Sendede 1 Para.
Paraları Değiştirdik.
Paramız Artmadı Senin 1 Paran,Benimde hala 1 Param Var.
Bende 1 Bilgi Vardı.
Sendede 1 Bilgi Bilgileri Değiştirdik.
Bak Şimdi Seninde 2 bilgin.
Benimde 2 bilgim oldu...


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MesajKonu: Geri: semboller   Salı Şub. 22, 2011 6:29 pm

View to the east at Snake River in Rocky Mountains

I got this emeil concerning the rock carvings made on free stones in the valley at the west side of the river:

Dear Sir
I had just reviewed your web site on the topic of
petroglyph, your topic on the Dal rock carvings bare a
resemblance to some I have seen here in my area in the
state of Idaho, USA. I would hope to send you a picture
or two for confirmation and perhaps get your
professional opinion upon them as to weather they are
perhaps in the category of which you have knowledge.
Thank you and hope to hear from you.


Similarity in solving the problem of symbolic writing in Idaho and at Dal.

The Idaho cut are seemingly about three seasons with Bearwatcher as leader in use in early second millennium BC like the laws of Dal. The upper line at Dal is about "marriage in Underworld" and the lower "marriage code"... see Law Rock. It is easy to see that Randall saw some similarity in using symbols and merge them to what looks like text

Cut from Max Bertola's southern Utah Rock State Park files at

These rock carvings are more normal and in a way like most places in Scandinavia and other places with figurative rock carvings. It is a mix from different ages when they wrote novelties to the rocks. We see the horse as the latecomer here, while footprint, animal print, deer, goats, circle and wheel are symbols that surely are much older. We see the Snake with head and tail and that is surely from the Animal Round in the sky

The rock carvings are totally a different "language" among the rock carvings of Western America. I take a cut from another letter telling about the location and such things:

"On the physical level the locations of these
petroglyphs are along the Snake River here in Idaho.
I have traversed the length of two hundred mile
stretches of this River's canyon and have noted that
only in six locations do these petroglyphs occur
and then only where there are islands, two islands in
the river where these rock carvings are.
These rock locations are not accessible by horse so
one is mandated to enter on foot and of coarse as I
feel by boat.

Several of these larger rocks show sign of being
heated by large fires so as to heat these massive
stones, purpose being to render fish fat from deep
indentations in these particular large stones. This is
obviously the case as you can see where an oil has
blackened and stained these rocks where it has flowed
out and down one side of each of these certain stones
with these indentations.

I feel the local population of indigenous people
where meeting with traders at these sites at certain
times of the year indicated by the notations on these
stones. Together they would use these traders boats to
stretch nets across the river at these island
locations, then slowly close these nets inward and
condense and harvest these fish.

Ocean salmon and sturgeon still inhabit these waters
yet now are locked in by the water dam projects.
I have debated this finding of mine with local archaeologists
who are in charge of the preservation of these sites,
yet to no avail. They cling to the desperate notions
that a simple Indian population whom had large horse
herds here wintering in these canyons.

This is totally absurd, NO ONE, can take even a sole
horse into these locations let alone a herd of many.
The local SHO-BAN, Ute and Piaute Indians know
there never was any food to be found in these locations
except fish. These Indians never possessed horses
in their past, they where among the poorest of all the
tribes in all America and never acquired the horse in
tell they where placed on reservations.

I am no expert on any of these subjects but I can
see these petroglyphs where pecked with iron, this
information on them is above the Indian at the times
mind ability and these locations are only of benefit
to a boat people".

I could not imagine that already at the first picture there are symbols for the "Earth oven", luau or Polynesian "umu ti" at the stone

The circle with three stokes is old Indus Script also used elsewhere in the Pacific

Let us at once leave all interjections and preconceived ideas. Still it is unique text and let us begin with this stone and later see what we find on other stones. One swallow does not make a summer and we need more examples of the script to be sure. Fortunately there are many more symbols of the kind on the rocks. I call this the Thunderbird Rock and it contends the best sample of Indus Script made with metal tools.

Most important argument for "visitors" making this is that the groves are made with metal chisel in the very hard lava. Randall is in the construction business and he knows the tools well. He has made some experiments and he is sure that only metal can make the rock carvings. We know that the Indus culture was specialised in metal trade. Maybe they were searching for metal and there is plenty of meteorite iron in the mountains upstream. In America they learnt metallurgy much later as far as we know by now.

Randall is right the script and the rock carvings have much in common with rock carvings on Dal my province. In fact there is a few similar symbols that must be common to many parts of the world. We have many rocks with spread symbols in disorder on Dal. We cannot solve all symbols but as long as we can understand a few of them and get a glimpse of their world it is a beginning. Yet on Dal we are fortunate to have a few big rock carvings made at one occasion so we can tell that they are ritual calendars.

Scandinavian rock-carvings are usually a mix of figures, ideograms and symbols. Some of it is local and others are import mainly from the south, but also as far as from India. We see the same kind of mix at Snake River. But let us start with the holy concept "Earth Oven"

Earth Oven

The general concept is the circle with three strokes for the stones in a normal fireplace

Asko Parpola has worked much on the Indus Script and I use some of his experiences and pictures here. He has gathered around 450 symbols with variants, but there are no real texts to be translated. Most of the samples are name labels, owner labels, packing labels and such things from the commerce. The use of simpler marked stones or seals is known from the Old World for nearly 10000 years. There is no document with two languages like the Egyptian Rosetta stone, so only fractions of the script and vocabulary is solved at this moment.

It is difficult to draw a circle by hand

Surely they chose this shape deliberately since it is difficult to draw a perfect circle without a tool. Nearly all the circle shaped symbols in Indus Script are made this way and with slight differences from text to text. We cannot expect to find perfect symbols in handmade texts anywhere in the world from that or other scripts.

As first category we can speak about clear copies like the oven symbol and even the "fireplace" symbol below at the cut. Both are so perfectly made so the doer knew his work. On the rocks is also the compass symbol that maybe explains the perfect circle. Second category is symbols that are much alike and lastly the third category where we have to use imagination and tolerate alterations. All are mixed with local trials in script and worst of all there are merged symbols.

All scripts in the world have many symbols in common depending on the fact that rural society was much alike everywhere. Another thing is as we see also in this case that symbols travelled all over the world with the sailors. Oceans were no hindrance and all kind of waters was the highways. At best they could make 100 kilometres a day by rowing and maybe much more sailing on the stream with the right wind.

At the continents they followed the rivers inland as here from Portland along Snake River toward Yellowstone. There they meet Missouri and it would be possible to cross the continent in fact. For those with light canoes falls would be no hindrance. They have found grizzly teeth from Yellowstone in Illinois and Ohio. Maybe people in West bartered to get mica and good flint from Flat Ridge in Ohio.

So there is no real objection to the assumption that some of the signs in the Snake River Valley are influence from somewhere in the Pacific. Once the Indus Script can reach the Easter Islands the coast of British Columbia is not much farther. Surely the first sailors have just been riding the stream and either reached Hawaii or the American coast. There is a little rock carving of a high seas ship on a rock in Hawaii that looks precisely as another from the Mohenjo Daro culture at Indus. At this stage I would not try to date and I let the texts speak for themselves.


Fertility symbolism

The Indus culture known from ca 2600 BC onward helps us in solving some of the symbolism in different cultures. On an Indus seal we see a naked figure standing between lotus stalks named "asvins" = friends = helpers. She is known as the naked rain and her headgear looks like that of figure A. The same motif we know from the Levant and she is perhaps goddess Astarte or Lait that maybe means "flow" understood as rain.

Figure A then associates to be Siva's consort Parvati since the young man is kneeling in front of her. On the seal are also the Aries or a ram and under that Seven Girls that should be the Pleiades. So the scene shows spring equinox in the second millennium BC.

Figure B is later Hindu symbolism for Siva and Parvati that were idols for the "first lowers" or start of season.

Figure C is from California and the upper figure symbolising the rain that in many cultures was symbolised by New Moon. The circle is the sun and warmth and the MA-symbol or boat shaped symbol is then earth or soil. Or in clear text the three components for life and growth.

Figure D is from Dal and sometimes it is up and down in the text. Maybe the bow symbolises rain and the fat stroke is the sun warmth. The symbol occurs on the Peasants' calendar in the section about growth.

The upper symbol in C is hard to be sure of since it could also be a fireplace and is then near Egyptian and later symbols for that. But they have always symbolised life and growth with fire as well as water and the soil is just the womb. The logic is that there is some increasing action in the hollow.

Fire and water are also tools for making food and making a bed for growing crops and vegetables. Their language was still poor so they used known symbols for the unknown. That is why we can see the Polynesian "umu ti or imi ti" with the meaning "luau", that is a special method of cooking for a feast. Maybe the same method came to Scandinavia in Iron Age from which we have mound of burnt stones. They suppose they have been used in a cooking pit.

A fireplace maybe. Note the cracked part that shows what is under the patina on this boulder. The picture should also more of the vast environment

We see the stone is cracked and maybe Randall is right about the fires. We know from much later times that the Apache traded dried flesh to New Mexico. Surely even dried fish could have been a good bartering product and traders from the coasts could visit the places. The custom among traders in the world those days was to settle on an island. Perhaps they easily could defend their goods. Some rock carvings of the same kind are found at Klamath Falls another river accessible from the Pacific.

Naturally we cannot sort out if the stones have been used in seasonal rituals or for instance when it has been season for salmon in the river. It seems that the coho salmon spawned in the North West Rivers both in spring and autumn. We know especially from the Norwegian northern coast that ancient fishermen from entire Scandinavia were gathered there when it was season. Another place was at South Skaane when the Baltic herring "went to" as they said.

Oil stain

The stones should be technically analysed before we know anything about the oily patina. Further analysis will maybe tell about other topic in their life. But some feast in the end of summer has been almost everywhere depending on their labour and industry. The astronomy ritual has Ramadan or the end of season and harvest year at that time. Naturally the Earth Oven have been heated for that or maybe for some other purpose.

Here I make a long quote from the beginning of the discussions between Randall and me:

"I have matched another random picture as in 6 B. This one shows a lot of staining more so than patina would account for in the lowest indentation of this great rock. I feel that this idea is manifest in this natural stone bowl as with the others which also have been heated and stained from liquid running out and down the side. The Governments assessment of the patina on the rocks indicates that the carvings at Snake River began as far back as 12000 years ago and ended with the Paiute 150 years ago".

I get the impression from your web site that thus far you feel that the rock carvings in the Snake River valley are only primitive renditions of knowledge past from outside influences. I detect the work of star priest or medicine men whom have commemorated their visits with patterns of the stars at the time of their visits.

One point I don't feel I have mentioned is the fact that these symbols are not the work of simply pecking on these large stones with flints, silicates of other hard materials.

I have taken great time in comparing the pecking styles with each and every of these other rock materials and have found that only an iron tool can leave these pecks at such depths and details.

I am absolutely sure that the majority of the larger symbols where done with an iron implement. Some certainly were done with simple stones but once you see the depths and actual details of these better symbols you can see that no rock material can do this certain pecking.

Not only have foreign peoples been to this sight, every indication of the looks and feel of this sight speaks of timed rendezvous. This was a place of boat peoples, no other reason would natives be in this harsh river bottom corner bench.

They didn't have horses here ever. They could not find food down here ever. They would not spend the winter here in such an undependable location. There are absolutely no knappings to be found for miles and miles around.

These are primary indicators of what a culture has to do and basic needs they must have on hand for simple survival, let alone the leisure to symbolically leave indications for such a vast amount of time in this one location.

Prediction of opposing peoples has always been a factor in Idaho. This protection from potential enemy would always be their primary consideratiYou simply can not stay in this area very long without food; hence the fish is the main aspect of this location. I cannot escape the fact that every location where their are petroglyphs there are islands.

Thousands of similar stones exist all up and down this river canyon. Hundreds of possible sites would prove far more suitable for prolonged stays but here at Wees Bar is the best location to see out of the canyon in both opposite seasons for seeing the sun sets and northern stars. This indicates fish running seasons and no other mammals could be in the area in any number, which could provide food at any time of year

I have found boat mooring docks and rock ballast at the river edge. You cannot forget these prime indicators and no one can argue away what this massive labour could be for. These stones are imported in a great profusion and that requires boats ... My friend these were sailors in boats whom occupied this and every other three locations where petroglyphs can be found.

These symbols are absolutely older than Iron Age, no question. Idaho is full of iron ores. Most of our tuffest lavas are iron and nickel, meteoric iron can be found now and then. Iron left on the surface does not last long. Stoves cars tools from no longer than a hundred years ago lie all over our mountains from the early mining days, not much over a hundred years and all this iron is almost rusted away.

There is no debating your conclusions about what you see as far as I am concerned, I just feel at no time in our past were any peoples ignorant. They just had to live in harsh environments and the act of transposing ideas to a medium such as rock is not easy in any age. But also I can assure you that not all symbols could be pecked with glass or stone and most of these better symbols where absolutely not done with either of these materials.

Iron I have found is the only material left as choice, no broken pieces exist around this site and erosion has not cleared any away that might have been there.

At this location there is Rock, Dirt, and these symbols. No shards, no smaller stones, nothing. I stand firm on this.

I am not trying to cause debate with you, no not at all. But this is not a primitive mind at work on this location. And even in our era I cannot make these peckings with any less than iron, and I began with soft rebar, beryllium copper and soft bronze.

I stand confirmed myself that at the least a chisel was implied most often, flint and obsidian is far to brittle and requires a very acute point meaning constant retooling of such points for the fine detail which implies shards of broken pieces strewn about the rocks perimeters.

None exist at all, anywhere, no flakes to be found neither in the valley of the canyon nor on any of the hillsides or below any of the cliffs for miles and miles"

Randall is my eyes and experience at the place. From the pictures we can see the quality of the boulders from a volcanic age on earth. They are not all the same mixes of stony stuff as we can see from the pictures. He tells about meteoric iron and other minerals.

From Scandinavia we know of search for metals in our mountains in the beginning general Metal Age 2300 - 1700 BC. They were "searching for the Lady", "working in the fork" or "searching for the Bear" everywhere on earth I suppose. Maybe the traders prospected and tried minerals and searched for gemstones in Yellowstone with their base below the falls.

Nowadays we think of bronze as an alloy of ten and copper. But in the early days they simply melted what they got from the ores. The quality and hardness of alloys are always depending on the minerals, the process and the finishing hammering.

Here I quote this from Department of Geology Chapter 4

Almost all copper ores contain some small proportion of arsenic, tin, zinc, antimony, or nickel, which mixes at the molecular level with the copper during smelting‹in other words. A tremendous number of subtly different alloys can emerge out of a smelter after a mixture of ore has been smelted, even though the geologist has been skilled enough to select ores that are rich in copper.

The alloys are still dominated by copper, but the alloy has a lower melting point than pure copper, which allows easier melting and casting. The castings are better quality, and the alloy is much harder than pure copper after it has been worked by hammering.

Paradoxically, the less pure copper ore that was available, the greater the variety of alloys the smith would produce from his smelter. By trial and error, early metallurgists (smiths) would soon come to associate a particular mixture of ores in the furnace with a particular result. In time, a skilled smith would be able to have some control over the end product, producing not copper, not a random unknown alloy, but a specific alloy to suit the job at hand.

The Bronze Age marks the time at which smiths became metallurgists, makers of magic, heroes, and gods. Bronze Age smiths were often buried with the tools of their trade: hammers, an anvil, knives and molds".

We should note that Metal Age began in maybe 6th millennium BC at Balkan. Today we know still too little for conclusions and especially the Far East is unknown to us. But we know for sure that China and India were skilled metallurgists in 3rd millennium BC. We have Sumerian documents telling that they bought weapons and metals from India. So if we find Indus Script made with metal tools it is no problem for that time.


Naturally I have already met objections, "I do not believe that other continents visited America before Columbus". I see such answers as coming from the "spinal cord" as prefabricated reflexes taught by the existing authorities. How can people answer before they have analysed the situation and the arguments?

Maybe I look like a little boy that never stops asking questions, since I believe that the child in is the true scientist. Always I am a curious and asking clever as well as foolish questions. Problemizing is what science is about in the beginning. In the finish it is about simplifying so that other people understand the conclusions.

Naturally I asked bunches of questions good and bad before I publicised these documents. It would not be good for my known high reputation if I am "running with a wind" as they said in my childhood. So here some good questions and more will come with further analyses.

Use and need for an advanced script

In very few places on earth we find advanced script outside the big city cultures before last millennium BC. There must be a need and there must be carriers of the skill. There are many places in America with rock carvings and also on all other continents. But generally they are all figurative and showing the rural life in pictures and not in script.

One exception is my own province where the figurative carvings came late in Bronze Age. But we have clear script from around 2000 BC and they are telling about ritual calendars and practical astronomy. The same topics were the main agenda in the big cultures. I know this kind of "unknown script" well since I have spent more than twenty searching for the roots.

Technique making the carvings

Naturally I am dependable on Randall's knowledge at the sites. He told me from the beginning that the figures must have been made with metal tools. I suggested obsidian from Yellowstone. But when I became sure of Indus culture as source I also knew that the metal culture of India was in frontline and mature around 2300 BC. If it was organised trade with perhaps several ships on tour they surely also choose a crew with different skills. The "umu ti" and "fire" figure above are very skilled handicraft.

Other evidence of Trans-Pacific trade

Carl Johannessen of the University of Oregon says American peanuts are found in two provinces in China dated to 2300 BC. At this moment we do not know if the Chinese sailed themselves or if traders from the Indus culture were specialised at transpacific trade. The ships in the Indian Ocean and the Pacific are clearly influenced by Egyptian as well as Indian seamanship and culture. We also see that Chinese ritual astronomy have something in common with the Indus culture.

Unfortunately Indian archaeology is until our time concentrated on a few places with little knowledge about the Ganges Valley area and other places. Let us wait for more substantial evidence knowing how big the population is today. We have to ask how big was it those days. Cultural "size" is usually dependable on size of population.

Around 50 symbols look very similar compared to Indus Script

We cannot expect the script to be standardised in the same way as in our days or in the big cities such as Mohenjo Daro with 50000 inhabitants. The technique of working on a rock is different from making script in clay and steatite. In Europe and the known cultures we "see" similarity with less samples than these 50 examples.

Did they have vessels for Pacific traffic?

My friend asked a couple of essential questions

Hello Bengt!

Crucial questions about Indus and America:

Do they have pictures of Indus vessels?

Do you think they were made for high seas?



Yes, there are at least a couple of seals/ tablets picturing the same type of ships as we know from Egypt. They have characteristic high stern and stem and a big paddle … In Traundelag Norway there are one of the same types. Another looks as if it were made of reeds in the same way as Ra of Thor Heyerdahl … I am not sure if he has discovered it yet. It might be too near? B. Landstroem thinks that type was used in 4th -- 3rd millennium BC

No, I do not think that travelling far was a problem even when riding on the Pacific streams. Once they were used too long distances at the Indian Ocean we know of, travelling at the Pacific only lasted for longer time. Surely they rather followed land since they could get their supplies ashore. But as soon as we know that the mighty Pacific was colonised by catamarans and long boats, then we can ask for how long backward did they use that kind of vessels.

… our preconceived ideas and lack of evidence make the limits for our open mind. Seeking for evidence on big sparsely populated continents like America would be like searching for the needle in a haystack. I have seen pictures of mossy rock carvings at Hawaii. Nature covers much of the evidence in time. A friend opened my eyes for South America. There is a huge land to discover. The world is much bigger than the Old World that grew a lot when people discover that Indus is third part of that with 1000000000

I wonder about the lack of boat symbolism in the Harappa and Mohenjo Daro culture, however both were cities inland near the river Saravati. We know for sure that they traded at Egypt en Sumer so why not in the other direction? The archaeology of East Asia is unknown to the Euro-centric scientist partly depending on that the discipline is new and in that environment nature takes back. In fact most of the Indus culture lies in Pakistan nowadays and working in two countries make it naturally difficult in many aspects.

Maybe in future they will find some city near the Indian Ocean with more evidence of trade. At that time there were two rivers Sarasvati and Sindhu according to latest discoveries using Landsat pictures. Some scientists want to call it Sarasvati--Sindhu culture, but I use still Indus since it is known and because the culture seems to cover a bigger area than the former river valleys. They are not sure how and when nature made the "shake up of landscape" but it is after the heydays of Harappa and Mohenjo Daro … we know also from the Nile Delta that the stream has altered the landscape and ancient cities disappeared. the site of Dr. Kalyanaraman is a gold mine when digging in Indus culture. There I found an article about 33 places in Rigveda mentioning boats/ ships. My impression is that their outlook in space-time is much the same as we see in Scandinavian rock carvings.

Firstly we have to translate the ideas to normal language. Then we see that the boats are sailing in the celestial sphere as well as in the environment. Some boats sail on the heavenly rivers while others are metaphors for movements. Unfortunately most of the hymns are for rituals with only fragments about the real world. The god Indra is thunderstorm with a thunderbolt and he uses a ship in many poems. Agni, the fire is also described as a sailor when the fire moves and naturally Maruts the winds are true sailors. The Asvins were protectors of the sailors.

Some verse tells that Sarasvati is the river as well as the heavenly river. Naturally the goddess Aiditi, the Earth comes in a boat on Sarasvati for the reciters to board. That tells us about ritual boats in the time before the shake-up. There is also a verse about a drowned boat in Sarasvati.

In Rigveda there are no dates so we have to analyse the motifs to get relative dating. We have also to analyse how ideas are created for symbols and poems. Mostly people use known things in both cases. So if a poem mention certain kind of vessels they are taken from the surroundings in the time the poet wrote.

Rigveda mentions freight ships, long boats, house boats, high quality boats with oars, ships used for overseas freight of seed, ships for high seas and one of them was furnished with hundred oars.

Naturally archaeology must build on physical evidence if possible. And there are much evidence about cultural interchange westward to Mesopotamia and Egypt. The heydays of Indus culture were also the early Bronze Age. In India they were mining copper as well as tin and became specialist in the trade

… the reflections of this age is the slab cist culture in Scandinavia and they also were searching for metal as we see in our province. The Shang dynasty in China became big consumers of copper and tin for bronze and we can ask who taught them the metallurgy or did they teach others? I think we have to be open for East Asian trade.

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Thunderbird, Wayward Sun, Bear dance Idaho 2

Little known cultures have usual a short history. In Scandinavia it begins with Christianity with the allowed Catholic Church and not the early Arians or like other continents it begins when the Europeans discovered them. In reality every mans history starts with the first human beings

Rock carvings, rock art, Dream Time, space-time, thunderbird, thunderstorm, Romans, Sumerians, Scandinavian Thor, Same Drum, Wayward Sun, Rocky Mountains, Sun Dance, hare-god, Utes, patronising, spring equinox, zodiac, animal round, Flood, Bear Dance, Honeypaw, Bearwatcher, moon year,

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Thanks to rock art and other artistic artefacts we know a little about human mind approximately 30000 years back. That gives us an open thread back from every age we look at. Too often science thinks that history began with the earliest known cultural artefact from the particular place. But there is always a beginning far back since people and culture does not appear suddenly.

With knowledge our early ancestors get intelligence in our imagination. It is my method to look at them expecting the same size of brains and intelligence as I have. Naturally their symbolism looks simple to us, but we are not dealing with aesthetic matters, but how mankind survived and the ideas were created and altered in the pace they needed.


These Australian idols are expected to be Weather and Thunderstorm

The Australian art have been were individualistic until our time. The artist mirror himself in his painting and the motifs are often archetypes and local idols. To go into the Dream Time is always a personal matter since you look inward. They mean space-time with everything happening in time and space. It seems odd to us, but in fact we act in the same way. When problems were to be solved in Sumer the hero fell into "bull dreams", which means he was thinking. Sometimes it is hard work and to isolate the outer world is better.

The individual style surely depends on the sparsely populated continent with few artists representing the culture and people. Still to us their art look consistent. Much of the Australian rock art is 15000 - 26000 years old

We have to know about the local environment to really understand what they are picturing. They have three seasons and as always in the tropics with big difference between cold and warmth. We can expect violent thunderstorms during the monsoon. The rain and storm goes on for weeks and the forces of nature you should fear.

… We find Him also in the sandy Australian desert as the true evil force in sandstorm. They call him Witdukurra in some dialect and they warn for the Kadairaman in the storm since he eats people and especially children. Naturally mankind needs powerful metaphors so that the children can look out.

The weather is not those hard in Scandinavia but we have the old Tjatse, storm, fog, frost and snow in the mountains. In southern Scandinavia I we have the fall and well god Necken that plays his fiddle and lure especially young girls to the deeps. Many years ago I heard a mother warn her youngest children for the Old Well-Ek

It was important for people all over the world to keep track of the behaviour of thunderstorms and bad weather just for safety but also for knowledge of the dynamic biosphere. Their method was to give it a name and abstracting some features in it to get hold on the devil. For us it seems odd but how should we describe the gruesome storm, thunder and lightning. The great Mights of Nature are the oldest deities and demons among mankind I suppose.

At the time of these rock-carvings in Idaho the Hittitian king Mursilis wrote a treaty in which he invoked the important deities of northern Mesopotamia and Anatolia. We can note that the stormgod Teshub is the most frequent and a dynasty of king used the god name … see Lingua Franca

Most of the so-called thunder gods are furnished with and axe. Perhaps because they knew that they stone against stone made lightning. In places with volcanoes they naturally told that the home of the storm god is in the volcano. Naturally it is so if we instead for the mythic name set in the actual phenomenon. It is matters of our way of in detail describe the phenomenon or like our ancestors speak in allegories. With our way of being superior comes that scientists too often include some misplaced valuing in "high and low" culture.

Romans telling how the weather god helped them to victory

In my younger days we should be Latinos or Grecos studying either of the languages since it was the real high culture. Later we were taught that Egyptian is the root and for some reason they often forget the Sumerian culture and few know about the Indus culture.

Now I define at least my own science and then there is no high or low culture in an equal world. Like other non-verbal sciences we should use same names and categories for similar things and phenomenons. If we use priest for ritual officials in Egypt we should use the same for the ritual leader and yearman elsewhere in the ancient world.

The only difference is the size of the temple. In fact many rural cultures used the very big one, namely nature as their temple. It is more democratic than closed temples of course since everyone can follow what happens in the open air.

The Romans were naturally affected by the Greeks and earlier by the big cultures in Egypt and Mesopotamia and often via the Levant. In that age they personified phenomenon in nature and made archetypes to grip their world. Some of the words are just like icons in our computing world other were just words for the phenomenon. It is easier to understand ancient texts if we change to the real name. Then Toth = moon, Horus = time, Re = sun, Inanna = new moon, rain, thunderstorm. The texts get the real dimension then and that is science of ideas.

We get the expression that the Romans ruled even nature since their gods and idols were human. In their world the strongest forces were the volcanoes and they erupted so seldom that people forgot it from time to time. The Sumerians show the first on earth Enki with the Eagle of Fire in hand. The rain goddess drives sometimes the wagon of thunderstorm and she has lightning from her shoulders.

The Scandinavian Thor from the sagas was the thunder and lightning. The lightning came from his hammer and the sound when he drove away in his special chariot. It was special since the draft animals were goats … I tried the goat-chariot at my friends home as a child. After that I wondered how Thor got his big butt in the seat and how there could be a big noise out of that … maybe things are bigger in his world.

On the other hand they told that I have a Thor-stone in my eye since they think I have been in battle with him. Anyway the tales about the Scandinavian thunder god is naiv and more like tales for children. Surely it depends of the fact that our period of thunderstorms in July is light and do not occur every year. Neither do the autumn storms and very seldom we experience a real hurricane. Another god was Tjatse the cold fog and night frost that was a threat to agriculture and of course in the mountains in North he ruled most of year

With this I point out that the gods or concepts for thunderstorm were created depending on the local climate and environment. Surely the Thunderbird or thunder-idol is one of the oldest concepts among mankind.

In Scandinavia we are fortunate having the Same culture in Lapland and it was documented from 17th century onward. In spite of that especially the Church wanted to wipe out the "pagans" and even the Kingdom wanted to get the Sames under the boot. Still less than 100 old drums were saved for us to analyse.

The first investigators saw them from the point of view of the Church. Then they were naturally pagan and some of the idols were the Devil Himself they told. They laughed at the primitive culture and did not realise that it was at least 10000-year-old culture that suited the strange environment in north. The Sames and Indian have much in common I think. The drum gives us an image of the culture just in a nutshell. But let us have a quick look at the old Same Drum that is representative for small tribes with 20 - 100 members.

This painted drum was documented in 1723 AD and it gives a very good picture of their world order. It also makes their world intelligible as soon as we understand the composition and the icons.

The Upper World is above the double line and that is the starry sky with some asterisms shown. The idols are from left Thundering with hammer and "anvil" to get the sound. Next is Rainbow and in the middle World Order with hoe of fertility. Third is Wind with shovel and near the border the heavenly Yearman with drum and drumstick Sumer it was the scribe Nidaba and in Egypt Thot I suppose.

Th Cock is symbol for the offer and the branch is the Messenger of the gods. The heavenly Reindeer was a big asterism consisting of Orion as back and the horns in Cassiopeja. Some star in that could have been used as fix-star of spring equinox by moving from one to another due to precision for around 6000 years. There is also the Big Bear.

As far as I know all cultures in the world have their great gods in the sky. Christianity has rationalised it to the patriarchal trio, the Catholic Church has the same and I suppose the Saints dwells there too. In ancient cultures their word of ideas and World Order was painted in the sky. They have found 8000 year old burials with a bird wing maybe symbolising the last flight of the soul or mind. There are maybe agnostics too in the world but they soon discover that the real Might of Nature come from above.

There were also Kalle Pardna and his dog that is Bearwatcher. His twin brother with a bow is the bear hunter Leib at left under the sky. Maybe he was put on the drum when the Bearwatcher was current as fix-star. But we se on the oldest rock carvings that they followed the bear from its dent in spring. They surely wanted to know where Honeypaw was all the summer. But it would seem to be best hunting it in autumn or in dent when it is fat. This principle counts for all hunting, fishing and gathering that it should be done when "it is season" for that.

The figure in the centre is the astronomical square with the cardinal directions west at left and north down. The oldest I have found at Alta, Norway is from around 4000 BC. But the best of them is from ca 3600 BC and it has sticky figures in all directions. One of them is shown as the birth-giving lady, i.e. Virgo in night sky. On another side there is a reindeer.

On some of the drums we see a reindeer at the left wing, but at this drum it is the thundering idol with wings showing the virtual nature of the concept. On top there is the World Order and sometimes a pair of fertility compare with the early mentioned Virgo.

At right is the Wind and down is the earth and perhaps symbolising the lowest point of the sun, since in north it is invisible for along time at midwinter. The bend symbol means "turning point" On the drums from Christian times there are "three kings" on the stroke and probably those we celebrate in beginning of January. In southern Scandinavia we have the time-wheel instead.

We can follow the year from Leib and the awakened bear in spring to the fishing lake in spring and summer. The bow in left corner is the settlement and place of the women, children and old folks. They were not allowed to be in the dangerous parts of nature and should look at it through a ring as ritual gesture. After that follows the season of growth with the three midwives used as idols for women fertility as well as for the nature.

Within the right side bow was the "the deaths' place" symbolising offers place and even harvest time. The vertical row of animals and the church is the novelty of Christianity. The horse was symbol of offering and probably after the autumn slaughter. The yearman goes out since he is not needed in the winter.

I chose this drum since it contains the essentials that we find in all drums with variations of course. This short characteristic could be derived even from the complex Egyptian society and also from our times. To this come holy mountains and offer places maybe with a "seit", i.e. holy stone representing ancestors' spirit. When I see a picture of a Same in front of a stone I think of old people at our graveyard as well as of the pope in Rome in front of the altar in St Peter. I think we should look at them with same respect for the dignity of such happenings. It is a sacred world for the individual.

Another stone from Idaho with in centre wings of the Thunderbird maybe

In Rocky Mountains we can expect that the Thunderbird was an important image for the weather. However there are finds of the Thunderbird in many places. We cannot know if the first Americans brought it with them or if it is their own invention and in second hand import. There is no point in speculating about their poems describing the various natures of the storm and hurricane since it is local. Even fishermen and sailors were depending on knowing much about the weather.

They tell that in old days people were watching the birds before travelling out. It is natural since nature reacts on the momentary climate and it is good to foresee things … In my childhood five miles from the sea we knew when bad weather was coming since the gulls came in from the seas. Another occasion was as soon as a peasant set his plough into the soil. Big Brother sees you from above!

Wayward Sun

"Listen now, on this feast of the Sun-Dance, to the Utes' myth of the taming of the sun-god:

Once upon a time Ta-wats, the hare-god, was sitting with his family by the campfire in the solemn woods, anxiously waiting for the return of Ta-va (the wayward sun-god). Wearied with long watching, the hare-god fell asleep, and the sun-god came so near that he scorched the naked shoulder of Ta-wats. Foreseeing the vengeance which would be thus provoked, he fled back to his cave beneath the earth."

Cut from The Wayward Sun by Rand and Rose Flam-Ath

Apollonius.Net - The Wayward Sun

This short cut is from the Utes in British Columbia. America is like a few places fortunate to have still living tradition among natives. Naturally it has changed much and much has been forgotten but it has been so in all ages that myths are living and changing.

The biggest step between normal westerners and old native tribes is the language. We have lost the bonds to allegories and metaphors and do not really understand the pragmatic rural world behind the myths and legends. We are thinking in words while we should think in pictures and allegories. We should see their language as poetry.

The natives outside Europe have all reason to distrust Europeans and our aims. Knowledge could be used wrongly or as the Sumerians told it depends if the onlooker has "a good or an evil eye". The imperialism in every sense is born in Europe and we have told the rest of the world that only we European know the truth. Patronising is naturally a way of ruling.

In science maybe some feel better and superior when he can tell others that "we are the best". Western man has many sins in this aspect and maybe wake up when he realises that the technological "superior" cultures destroys the biosphere. We have nothing to be proud of. Next generation in science must see true all the wrong conclusions former generations have made.

No wonder that many times natives fooled the European researcher and within his tribe made fun of him. That is the method of giving "the Bear foreign names". The result is that we cannot trust much in tales and myths. On the other hand the systematic scepticism and check of source is quite new in science.

Another hindrance is that we use some specific terms about other cultures. At least in science we should describe a concept with the same words in Egyptian and Navaho culture. Still we accept the Egyptian strange and ugly gods as almost natural. But among Indians we use concepts like spirit and call the priests medicine-man. However the function of them is precisely the same in Egypt and in small tribes around the world.

Now back to the above example that I found some weeks ago. If we see some practical and rational allegory in it we could see the Hare as the asterism that was current at spring equinox around 6000 years ago. It was normal to tie the yearly calendar and ritual to the sunrise in east as for instance "Sun in Hare" or the topical star at the time.

At Alta North Norway there is rock carvings showing the four seasons as a square. The rock carvings are dated to around 4000 BC when the new animal round was made. In the carvings there are also two hares of all animals in nature. Why chose that animal. The asterism Hare is below Orion and spring equinox was in that asterism for more than third millennium BC. Then we can at least ask if that particular picture is about spring equinox.

We have to borrow another short cut from the legend of Wayward Sun. In fact that gives us much evidence that parts of the legend originate from the making of the calendar we still use

"The sun-god was now conquered, and he appeared before a council of the gods to await sentence. In that long council were established the days and the nights, the seasons and the years, with the length thereof and the sun was condemned to travel across the firmament by the same trail day after day till the end of time"

In the Scandinavian Edda we find the same situation in Voluspa especially in verses 6 - 9 they tell about gathering the assembly of gods to bring order in chaos. Here they use the expression "wayward" to tell there were no order and that was the reason for making a new start. Naturally for instance a simple thing as deciding the seasons and how to follow the sun was bringing some order. A greater order was when they tied the moon to the sun ecliptic and the stars. We have only fragments left in the sagas and early tales.

It is no wonder that the Indians do not see the very beginning of their myths. In Scandinavia we have the memory of the Maypole but in Sweden we celebrate the Midsummerpole. In some landscapes it is just a pole while others have a crossbar with two or four rings. Not many know that the rings symbolised quarters and that the feast was between quarters at summer solstice. The Maypole was after the Celtic season order based on beginning of the months February, May, August and November with respective feasts called Irminsul, Beltaine, Lugnasad and Samain.

In Sweden all feasts have nowadays in common that "they must", i.e. the children dance the "frog dance". They jump on their heels and sing "Small frog , small frog are looking funny, hoo kvack ack, hoo kvack ack, no ears no tail they have, hoo kvack ack, hoo kvack ack" … Since we have old place names on Frog- maybe we have got this song from the Indus culture. In Rigveda they sing about the Frog as messenger of the monsoon time after midsummer … see Indus-symbols

Surely some scientists disagree since I have read that they tell we imported these things in 18th century. But we see the pole in our rock-carvings and we have even a volador we know from different places in the world for instance Mexico. We have also an old place name "Ruangstungur" that should be "Windpole" in plain English. It seems that all these have in common that they celebrate midsummer or another turning point of year. Often they have four wings.

This is an example how we get small fragments of customs and folk memory telling about something we can try to understand as rational. We have no proof and a text in English telling it is so and so. But there should be some enigma in life … and the scientist should have something to quarrel about.

In Finnish legend the smith made the earth cover of copper and he also made the food mill Sampo. It is an allegory for making order in society. The zodiac or Animal Round is not reality but a plan of how people can use it as the "Big Clock" programming the year after that. The sun was the long hand and the moon the short hand on that clock. The asterisms were originally chosen as icons for the works during seasons. That was depending on what labours were appropriate locally.

In rock carvings all over the world we see they also use animals from the local environment. Often they tied the year to some particular animals and their behaviour. Indians and Scandinavians have in common the Crow moon in mars. Here on Dal is a saying about "When we hear the snipe there is enough grass for the mare and filly" … If they used such metaphors and old language today when city-dwellers on visits in the "chlorophyll " they should soon realise they are in "another world"

Practical astronomy following the sun and moon was their calendar tied to events like the equinoxes and solstices or halfway between them … especially in India they practised the trisected year according to their seasons. The early myths seem simple to us, but remember that they were told so that even a little child could understand something in it. Adults understood the allegory when they needed to guide their year.

We can hardly know for how long time spring equinox have been used by observing the sun rising in east and also observing in which star that happens. They used the opposite star for aligning the moon orbit at the nearest full moon. But it seems to have been used all over the world, besides observing winter and summer solstice and also related to the stars. By following the asterism they could decide which time of year it was besides counting days and moons.

The sun is often object in myths of this kind. For people living on harvesting animals, fishes, plants and what nature gave it was enough to have four seasons and some myth that explained the yearly circulation and some other big phenomenon. But for cultivators harvesting planned growth it was not enough. They needed to explain growth and the circulation of water symbolised by the moon.

In European language they use man = moon and even Latin "luna" seems to come from the Sumerian word LU = man. Toth, the moon ruled the season in Egypt. In our rock carvings we see the Sumerian symbol LU for the beginning of the year. For us it was convenient to symbolise the season and seven moons with male figures and sometimes with some attribute to separate the different moons.

I avoid using words like "god" and "spirit" in my scientific and popular texts, since I want to describe the practical uses and needs. They needed to make abstractions understandable for all. It takes about a day to knock in a meter high figure into the rock. I have been laying on the rocks for an hour or two. I understand perfectly that they wanted to make the figure fast and did not care much for unnecessary details.

This is my general description of studying rock-carvings and the rural life of those days. We have top know their environment and kind of society before we go into their world. In America it is a question of knowing as much as possible about the Indian culture at the particular localities. That can help when interpreting abstract figures, since in some places they invented symbols that were like a script but normally only for the important events and labour of the year.

We have to understand that they dramatised even these natural things. It was their method of remembering and with time they added more and more to the story as conditions changed. In the legends are also mixed folk memory and we cannot know for how long back. Folk memory has no time line.

So we meet the concept Flood that many takes too seriously before analysing what our ancestors really meant. Natural floods are part of life through ages. It is just normal however some occasions are exceptional. Mankind is believed to have lived for at least a million and a half years as thinking humanlike being. Most of the world shares the memory of some flood. Except in Scandinavia they are telling about the Fimbul Winter = Great Winter and maybe Ice Age and in Greece they tell Chronos = Time chased people to the caves.

Another explanation within the past 6000 years is the Flood Watergate and even the other Eridanus, but that seems to symbolise the tamed Flood. Mankind is a living memory as long as the legends make sense or are in use. Another manifestations are rock carvings and megalith monuments they are stable and sometimes intelligible.

Bear dance

Rock with three bear-paws

Occasionally local people today call the stone "grass moons". Why would they use such a name? It sounds like speaking bear paws from the very past. According to the Ute legend and year ritual they celebrate/ celebrated the Bear Dance in spring, i.e. at spring equinox. If they followed the moon and the asterism Bearwatcher it would be in May by now due to the precession. But four thousand years ago it would have been in March. The climate has also altered and was maybe warmer then.

At Alta we see they followed the bear in season. It was the "high game" and the bear was King of the Forest with many names. Outside hunting season that lovely animal was Honeypaw and people admired it for its strength and men wanted to be like Great One. Besides that the Reindeer and Elk were the high game for food.

In hunting season they gave Him foreign names and women were not allowed in the game. They should look after the hunters through a ring that was the symbolic gateway between "our World" and that of "Him". Naturally that was also educating children to not be alone in the forests.

I have a special love for Honeypaw since my Grandpa was the last great bear hunter in last century. He got 63 nose rings on his wall since the bears came from the great wilderness in Russia into North Karelia were he lived. Naturally I have studied the old hunting rituals in the Karelian epos Kalevala and other literature.

One of my first memories is my Grandma dancing in front of me her skirt sweeping around. She showed how she danced when she became the Bear's Bride at her wedding. In those days the wedding ritual was similar to the Bear Feast when they brought home the bear. At the wedding the bridegroom was sent to the woods while the bride was dressing. Then the young men went out and caught the "bear" and brought him to the wedding.

It was naturally mostly precaution to follow the bear or at least know were it was. We do not know too much about their hunting season. Generally they harvested nature when "it was time". That means all kind of stuff should be harvested at the right time to get the best product like skin, meat, wood, vegetables, fat fish and whatever they needed. In the northern climate they were forced to store food for the winter. That means for instance autumn slaughter when the animals were fat.

Year-Ritual calendar from Alta Norway from around 4000 BC

We see they "Followed the Bear" from the dent at left. Above the bears are 7 sticky figures in the same way as we see in "the suite of season" in many rock carvings of Europe. In this small scale we do not recognise that a couple dances the Scottish above the suite. The end of season is the slaughter in the fence. Maybe they also used to drive them over a cliff, since the open bit in the fence is like a "cliff" in the rock. The rock carvings are on a big rock dateable by the elevation of land. We get a god feeling for their normal year from this.

According to the folk memory of the Utes there are different opinions about the Bear Dance. According to some of the elders, this was usually around the middle of March. All the bands would come and set up camp and prepare for the dance. Maybe we should stick to that memory since another legend connects it to the Pleiades that once were stars of spring equinox.

The legends how Bear's Lodge got the name tell about seven girls being trapped to a rock by a bear. Some variant tells that they flew to heaven and became the Pleiades. When we put together this with the spring feast we are back in time after 2000 BC when the Pleiades were stars of spring equinox. We see the bear symbols / bear paws also in Scandinavian rock carvings at that time.

Opposite to Pleiades we have the Bearwatcher with Arcturus as the bright star. Depending on local methods in describing spring we have to look also at the opposite star at spring equinox. Among peasants he was the idol as guard for the fields during season. In Sumer they pictured him as Archer. In Scandinavia we know from medieval times the Meadow Guard. Maybe he was guarding the animals as well as the sown fields against the night frost in a wetter climate than ours. His duty was to light fires if needed to keep away the frost and predators.

Cut with the bear paws

The long claws tell us it is something bear-like. The strokes on the paws tell that it is not for real. Besides that there are only three of them and not in the order of a wandering bear. If we think about astronomy of the time maybe the four oblong symbols are the cardinal points of seasons and the solar calendar markers.

The Indus method of parting the "moon year" in three depends on the three seasons in that climate. But the system was adapted in many places so for instance in Scandinavia we got three terminuses for things. It was normal method to use the opposite star of spring equinox for the moon year. So it is possible that these symbols were meant as memory of how to decide their calendar.

This seems to be Idaho Script

The rock is much cracked and we hardly see the wane moon symbol at left. The symbol in the middle is a bow crossed by a line with a bear paw under it. Next is the S-shape that is used for the mourning mother in Hittitian. Anyway this looks clearly like some text and tells us about educated people in the Snake River Valley. The bear paw and bow make us think about practical astronomy even when we do not really understand the text

When we see our ancestors as rational beings there is not much room for magic and cult without underlying meaning and use. We know for sure that in agriculture the myth was like operating instructions for the season. Maybe they used some rituals also during the season just for fun or marking the time … alternatively when some big job should be done and that demanded for preparations. It is just like the farming life I remember from the 1940:ies. Rituals are the means for the folk memory.

The real mystery begins when the practical use disappears and people practise the ritual as tradition and just for fun. In time the real legend fade out and none remember all concepts implied. I have borrowed only the rational bits from the legends to give rational explanations. However I know life is irrational and people need tradition as well as mystery.

That does not mean we should see all such things as odd behaviour … look at the Swedes dancing around the Midsummer Pole. In the "frog dance" they sit on their heels and jump like frogs and singing "kvak, kvack, kvack". At distance it looks quite strange.

Another strange thing is that the Swedes celebrate Celtic Beltaine or the fire at May 1st while the Danes have their fire at Midsummer. That tells us we cannot generalise too much since traditions are local. Locally we have still different season rituals compared to the "Rituals of State"

Bende 1 Para Vardı.
Sendede 1 Para.
Paraları Değiştirdik.
Paramız Artmadı Senin 1 Paran,Benimde hala 1 Param Var.
Bende 1 Bilgi Vardı.
Sendede 1 Bilgi Bilgileri Değiştirdik.
Bak Şimdi Seninde 2 bilgin.
Benimde 2 bilgim oldu...


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MesajKonu: Geri: semboller   Salı Şub. 22, 2011 6:40 pm

Ritual rock carvings Idaho 3
we cannot interpret some ancient script that does not mean that
uneducated people made the script. In fact every script demands for lots
of thinking and even that more than one man thinks since script is a
kind of convention among a group of people

Rock carvings, Snake River, cartouche, Tutankamun, alabaster egg, Nampa, urn symbol, offer cauldron, high sea ship,
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Lately some Scandinavian scientist told
that above 50 degrees latitude is the shaman belt and that concerns even
most of both Americas. Perhaps they have never heard about the great
stony cultures south of that landmark. Archaeologists and historians
prefer big buildings that they can see are culture. Rural wooden culture
leaves not much remains. Stony artefacts have not the same value in
Egypt and above that shaman belt for some reason. But the primitivity of
archaeology and history is not the topic here.

I use a lot of irony here since I get
the impression that officially the history of the North American Indians
do not go longer back than to the Spaniards. I suppose it is much like
in Scandinavia that they believe in the shaman belt lived only primitive
beings. The latest to describe them was Adam of Bremen who told about
one-eyed, one-footed, head-in-stomach and people with dog head in the
far Scandinavia that in fact is above the 50th degree. Dear Adam could blame the Greeks since he copied their texts …and some of the scientist today follow his thread.

I have to mention this because when I
now tell about cultural rock carvings no-one would believe that some of
them are maybe 4000 years old … I see the same disbelieve here in
Scandinavia very often. However we have cultural rock carvings dated by
the elevation of land to an age of around 6000 years. That shows that
they followed the southern cultures at that time. Other carvings were
ere made as soon as the ice left and rock carvings is the oldest art on

It is world-wide custom that citizens
and Hollywood describe rural people as lowtech and "behind the angle" as
we say in Swedish. The underestimating one is the fool. Some scientist
has found that as soon as we draw some figure we also intuitively
understand the mathematics of the same. I have met people with very
little time at school being skilled professionals later in life. One
house-builder calculated the buildings and costs but could not tell how
he did it.

We should not underestimate the wisdom
and skill of Stone Age people … in fact the great cultures in the Old
World was build with simple stone tools to a great extend. On some of
the rocks I found a symbol that is like compasses of those days and
surely they needed that to draw the perfect circle on next rock.

On top of this crowded rock is the Thunderbird
this rock is a real mix of glyphs/ symbols without order. Here I use
the word "glyph" since they seem to be from a vocabulary of standardised
glyphs in a script. However they are not used for running texts. In the
early syllable scripts glyphs could be used also as ideograms and whole

I have used several cuts from this rock:
They show that these rock carvings were made with metal tools. Next
question is from where came the tools? We know that at those times the
Indus culture was a big dealer in metal. The rock is very hard and they
have needed hard tools for the precise grooves. For the Thunderbird see
the artice Idaho 2 … but here another cut.

In Middle East the Stormgod was the primer god at this time

this glyph is from the Indus Script. Significant is the low wings and I
compare it with the Indus Script. Naturally there are many more
similarities than this. But it is only natural to begin at this rock
since the figure looks primitive.

That is why I compare with the symbol form the same time in India and
we can also note that in northern Mesopotamia and Anatolia most of the
cities and settlements worshipped the stormgod as one of the most
important deities at the time.

cracked parts of the rocks make all interpreting difficult. Observe the
very deep glyph in lower right corner. That must have been done with
metal tool at another time.

has sent me pictures of around 30 rocks and from different angels so it
is total around 100 pictures. They show a cross-section of the
rock-carvings made with symbols and glyphs. It is much like our
Scandinavian rock-carvings where we find a few big rock-carvings made as
ritual calendars at one occasion and in the same style. Another
category is big rocks with a mix of symbols and glyphs perhaps made at
different times. Third category is smaller rocks with rock carvings that
look like sketching.

In true science we cannot put on a label
"uneducated" as soon as we cannot interpret some script as long as we
generally mean that script is a sign of "high" culture. It is just
contradiction in arguments.

Their problem was how compress a long
message shortly on a rock or somewhere else. All kind of script and text
compresses reality. The description of our universe would be bigger
than the universe. So we have to simplify. The more we do it the more
difficult to understand the description. On a rock there is limited
space for script in the size we normally see at rock carvings

Our ancestors 6000 years and more back
found the general methods of gripping chaos. First step is to give name
to known facts or points in the chaos. Chaos is not idle but in motion
so we have to decide the path of motion. They call it the Ariadne thread
in unknown chaos, but in planned movement it is the timetable completed
with the actors and actions to do or follow.

That is why they invented the "suite"
with leaders for the moments of time. They made stony monuments
especially in West Europe to manifest the decided patterns of life. They
"painted" their programme at the night sky as a ritual calendar. The
asterisms are real as icons but not as physical facts. They associated
myths to the round and the asterisms and got a timetable for the season.

We have to know this as the thread
behind unknown scripts. As a matter of facts few of us think about the
patterns we are educated to follow. The Church still tells us the ritual
year and they decide the dates in the ancient way. All our behaviour
follows the same methods and patterns our ancestors figured out.

When describing or measuring chaos we
use the method of comparing the unknown with the known and give names
from known things. The Sumerians told that once the "thing" gets a name
it is not unknown any more. It exists and that is clear and scientific
analysing in detail. The Sumerians wrote down the algebraic method in
which the balance is the method. We put the unknown on one side and
compared the unknown with that. All our measuring technique is using the

In this case it is not possible to solve
the script since we do not know the language of the time. In my own
province it was possible to solve some bits since the language here
surely has been near our present language … or at least near the
earliest Old Norse. It was a good help until I understood what it is
about. Once we know the topic we can understand the glyphs/ symbols that
are based on ideograms, i.e. simplify something known.

This is the rock with bear paws with cross-lines
this rock we can at least see that the footprints are bear paws since
the claws are so long. But still it is not a bear since there are
cross-lines so it must be some virtual being. Since we from other rock
carvings have the approximate dating we can see it as Bearwatcher. In
Scandinavia we have several rocks on the same theme.

As soon as we connect to India we understand why there is three that
means trisected moon year. The oblong figures left of the three paws
means moons and there are some other glyphs from the Indus Script. We
see they tried to merge glyphs to word and that is much like in my

are symbols that seem to be symbolising moon, sun and time and some
remains just enigma at this time. It is much the same as mixed rock
carvings on Scandinavian rocks with only glyphs, symbols and ideograms.


In the middle Egyptian bronze sickle compared with rock carvings Himmelstadlund Sweden
figure at the rock we see at left above the shadow. It looks much like
the Egyptian bronze sickle. In fact we have in Sweden rock carvings of a
time-ship with only the Egyptian bronze sickle as cargo. I think we
should see it as that they made a note of the novelty they got in the
trade … in this case it is up to us if we want to believe it is possible
that some trader brought it to Idaho.

Maybe we should mention an alabaster egg with the cartouche of Tutankamun found at Nampa Idaho
"King Tuts
Cartouch was found at Nampa Idaho. Never told exactly where but all
indications tells me at Wees Bar. This was found at an undisclosed
location so as not to attract attention to Wees Bar I suspect. This was
in 1914, way before Carter located his tomb".
that kind of find ignite imagination and many questions once we skip the
presumptions that none had been there before Columbus in America.
However I have to get more exact details.

We have been searching for more information and 26 February 2002 I got this message from Randall:
Now to facts, I had spoken to the person whom has Tuts egg, Kathy Kinkaid. Two hours on the matter. No relation to Mr. Kinkaid.
The egg was found in Pocatello,
Idaho by her grand mother in 1918, in the hills probably lightly buried
for it is the size of a chicken egg. With it is a blue glazed glass
type stone probably Fienece.
Please correct the info you had
posted on the Idaho web page concerning the egg that I had mentioned.
The credit for the correction has been from one Terry Carter. He had
read your web page and contacted me telling of our error and went as far
as calling Mrs Kinkaid so as I could speak to her personally.
Later I
will get a picture perhaps, however Mrs Kinkaid does not want
publishing. Maybe I can write a few words about what it could be.

Unfortunately this rock is very cracked
would have been good to see the entire ornament, but the pot on the
ship catches the eyes One swallow does not make a summer … but sure the
motif with the "boiler" feed curiosity. We know very little about
Chinese high sea ships during Bronze Age. They think they were of the
same type as the riverboats with broad cut off stern and stem but higher
than at the riverboat.

We do not
know anything about a "dragon" in stem. They have found rock carving on
Hawaii showing high stem and possibly a dragon. Still we do not know
much about the boat in entire Asia. Wee much Egyptian influence in
Indian and Polynesian boats of today.

We see some urn-symbols
also on the SRV-rocks. The asterism Urn was current as opposite fix
star of spring around 2000 BC, i.e. autumn equinox. And it would be the
earliest astronomical evidence in Snake River Valley so far. The meaning
of the Urn is naturally as container for the harvest alternatively the
cauldron for the feast and generally for cooking food. En Celtic myth we
have Dagda with the cauldron and the big club. The club was maybe the
harvest symbol and the cauldron the winter food.


The urn at right reads "Is in Urn" meaning then time or harvest
would be natural that the ritual symbol in the sky gave the idea to the
cauldron and even the Chinese boiler. They have found some very big
boilers for offering. Some of the early Chinese images for asterisms
they have in common with India. So it looks like ordinary trade from
India to China.

At right in Scandinavia we have some finds of various offer cauldrons and the urn-ship is from a calendar in my province.


At left the LI-tripod from China with typical Shang decoration that reminds much about the early Olmec decorations

Note the Sumo-trousers. To me a figurine like this is a question-mark from the Olmec culture 1200 - 400 BC
Johannessen of the University of Oregon says American peanuts are found
in two provinces in China dated to 2300 BC. At this moment we do not
know if the Chinese sailed themselves or if traders from the Indus
culture were specialised at transpacific trade. The ships in the Indian
Ocean and the Pacific are clearly influenced by Egyptian as well as
Indian seamanship and culture. We also see that Chinese ritual astronomy
have something in common with the Indus culture.

We have little evidence from the early period of this Asia - America
connection. But it is enough to make us be careful before we deny
categorically that there was any connection before Columbus, I think. I
hope future will bring more evidence … as an idea I think of the rock
carvings in East Gautland showing a boat and on that a sole Egyptian
bronze sickle. It was their way of presenting the novelty

This picture of a high-sea ship
is from Mohenjo Daro, Indus and the same period. We know from later
times that they were skilled sailors and traded on China. Another seal
shows they carried birds on the ship. They used them when they sent them
away in search for land.

Bende 1 Para Vardı.
Sendede 1 Para.
Paraları Değiştirdik.
Paramız Artmadı Senin 1 Paran,Benimde hala 1 Param Var.
Bende 1 Bilgi Vardı.
Sendede 1 Bilgi Bilgileri Değiştirdik.
Bak Şimdi Seninde 2 bilgin.
Benimde 2 bilgim oldu...


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MesajKonu: Geri: semboller   Salı Şub. 22, 2011 6:46 pm

Summary and conclusions Idaho 5
make them dare? Landlubbers would surely ask that question since we go
from ourselves outward. Instead we should ask about the sailors of those
days. The skill is still living. They were born practically at the seas
and with mothermilk the basic knowledge

Time River, world map, Sargon, guiding stars, Aratos, Ursa Minor,
Little Bear, worldview, resurrection, mission, Medicineman, healer,
archetype, Great Spirit, cause and effect, thermodynamics, alienation,
individualism, egalitarian society, Indus Culture, Indus Script, Olmec
Culture, Shang Culture, Tutankamuns iron dagger

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Whale game at Barents Sea in rock carvings Salaw-Ruga Karelia ca 2000 BC
about guts. We have little evidence from those days and few images tell
about real life at seas. Then this picture is a good reminder of guts
as well as about organisation for going into the real big game. Every
man on the vessel was skilled and knew what to do in most situations.
Such skill you are almost born with.

oldest boat we know now from Europe is one of three found at Ferriby,
East Yorkshire England. More than 52ft long, it was made from huge oak
planks sewn together with twisted yew branches. It had room for 18
paddlers and possibly a mast."
the oldest finds in the world is "naturally" from the Persian Gulf were
the great cultures we know of started together with Egypt and Indus. We
should always remember that our knowledge build on the fact that
"known" cultural places are well dug, while the rest of the world still
is "archaeological wilderness" and places for cult and primitive beings
if we should say it ironically.

British team of archaeologists believes that small slabs of bitumen dug
up in Kuwait could hold evidence that man first successfully built
ocean-going boats up to 7,000 years ago."
of normal vessels usually make a little model of what they are going to
build. They have found such models of Egyptian high seas ships from
third millennium BC. The model is exactly the same as many big
fishermen's boat in the Indian Ocean and also the catamarans of the
Pacific have often the same shape. Usually mankind tries the latest
inventions and I am convinced that "the World" gave the ship a trial. In
Northern Norway there are rock carvings showing Egyptian ships from
third millennium BC.

Discussion about the background to the Indus Script in Idaho includes that we should know about seamanship and
such things. I have discussed it with Randall Hale a lot. Rodi Wout
from Scotland wrote me and we began to discuss. His family roots and
work is in seamanship and he is also interested in the history of
sailors. There are naturally no sources from distant times so we have to
discuss and reason about it and gather what we know.

reminded me that maybe traders went out for three years and bartered
where they could make the best profit. Besides the yearly cycle ancient
cultures practised also other cycles in their administration. For
instance we know from medieval times that the bishop visited every forth
year and so did the tax collector. The king maybe visited more seldom
and some great thing were held every ninth year. Since there were fair
and festivities the traders planed their visits after that. From the
rock carvings we can se that there were suitable law and order according
to their needs.

From the
Scandinavian rock carvings we learn that the boat was the main vessel
and that seas and rivers were the highways. So it would only be natural
that people explored the lands around and near rivers and seas
everywhere. We also see that they lived in space-time and pictured our
journey on the Time River with our doings as cargo. We see the
same method used also in Egypt and Sumer with deities on the Time River.
That was one part of the organisation together with the concept "suite"
that delegated the jobs to be done. Such things develop on demand

Around the
coasts in most of the world were people specialised on their own seas.
That goes back tens of thousand years since the sea was the easy food
most of the season for those that dared and knew. Every fisherman knows
that there are not plenty of fish in all waters. Some places are better
and others and the real big one are those were the big ocean streams
turn when meeting land. In the river it is where river meats and below
falls or behind obstacles downstream.

One such
area is in Northern Norway for that Atlantic Gulf Stream. Inn the
Pacific it is at the Gulf of Alaska where the northern Pacific Stream
meets lands and become the California Stream. There are plenty of places
around the world and soon mankind learned to use them.

We cannot
apply our worldview on those days. We have the globe and satellites that
give us the concrete image of the earth/ world looking like an apple.
That is why we think, "No they could not travel that far over those big
oceans". We have a world map of Sargon from middle of first
millennium BC but it could be much older. They paint their world in the
middle of the circle. Outside that is the neighbours and outmost the
circle give a limit to the unknown. It just the same as the Scandinavian
"Midgaard, Utgaard and the big Midgaard Snake outmost".

There are
no distances on the map and when you travel towards the outer limit "the
snake guarding the unknown" simply is in front of you but advances away
in pace with you. The early travellers did not know the limits and in
pace with their exploring they could be on travel longer and longer and
their know world grew. The profit from the travel was the reason to come
back. That is why we get the impression that the visits of foreigners
were occasional and sometimes short. Naturally it also depends on the
fact that the world is big and it is only excavated in places were
modern cities and roads grow.

Guiding stars for sailors

The Macedonian poet at court Aratos wrote the poem Phaenomena about 200 BC. From that we may read something about praxis then.

A number of stars wander around the sky,
Forever together, always in company.
However the axle does not change at all,
No, steady it is
in its middle the earth is in balance
and wind the sky around.
In both ends of the axle is a pole.
One of them we do not see,
but high in the north the other stand.
Two bears walk around like wagons
each one alone ...
They call one of them Curving Light
after that Achaeans sail on deep oceans
They name the other the Top.
Phoenicians steer after that friend.
The top is bright and easy to find,
when night is young, it shines bright and clear.
The other is smaller, but for the sailor best.
In a smaller orbit it goes around
and lead the ships of Sidon on their voyage.
Aratos knows about constellations too:
Long ago
a man the names found
and their shapes too.

The Phoenicians were good sailors and their secret was navigation using Little Bear or whatever name they used
All professionals are eager to keep their secrets and so the sailors. We have only some fragments but we know they used Ursa Minor or Little Bear.
The star Koschab could be used as pole from about 2000 BC and onward.
We find the star on a carving in Haugsbyn Dal. Before that that they
could use Thuban in Dragon.

The Indus
culture used "compass birds" and like other ancient cultures they knew
the starry sky well. That would also mean that traders/ sailors would
soon try to discuss the celestial sphere when they came to a new far

Different worldview
When we talk about guts and faith we can expect that they believed in resurrection.
That would be the normal conclusion when we see how things circulate in
nature. Other believes are based on intellectual speculations that need
we keep much in mind if we want to see some reason in it. If you
believe there is a natural afterlife you do not care if you die, since
you will be born again. They saw animals as their fellow beings. They
had no objections for becoming an animal in next life.

Our valuations are often tied to money and materialism and that we
live our dear property when we died. With little owning they had no such
problem. That is maybe one of the reasons that we in the cities of the
Indus culture get the impression of egalitarian world order in the
towns. Surely they did not think much about such things since we can
also see that they followed the ritual order.

That means the ritual was the framework for their life and they lived
and worked in the name of their deities. From Sumerian texts we see
that at least the scribe described ordinary citizens as "legs of gods".
The Ritual Age and their time concept were based on what was going to
happen and be done in next period. They were not tied to plans and
schedules but to "time for doing this and that". We see the seven suites
of the summer as a mean of doing what should be done in each period

Modern town-dwellers and even many rural people have initially many
objections due to the fact that few have real experiences of manual
work. When they see some ancient labour with the tools of those days
they think it is too hard and take too much time. People had not that
kind of thoughts however they were human and wanted to get things done
fast. I make that conclusion from the fact that they used rough tools
for daily work and made fine tools for ritual as far as we can see from
sparsely populated places.

Copper chisel from Kalibangan India
tools were real inventions and can tell us approximately for what
purpose they were made. In Scandinavia we have finds of very fine and
narrow chisels in early 3rd millennium BC. Surely they were
used for fine carpentry. With good copper chisels it would maybe be
possible to make the sharp groves in the lava block of Snake Valley.
Even bronze was in use in 3rd
millennium and the Chinese became specialists in cast bronze items.
The tools
of the Egyptian culture have often better finish, but still in many
cases they used stone and wood. In a big culture they have the work
force for making fine art and handicraft. Metal was not that frequent
before our general Bronze Age. But they could afford to get metals
earlier than the rest of the world. In fact some of the tools from those
days are still used in special handicrafts.

Nowadays we
have stone workers specialised in making ancient tools and they tell it
is no match to make a rough tool. I suppose we underestimate our
ancestors' technical skill when it comes to polishing stone tools for
special purposes. The desire of pleasing their deities with gems and
hard weapons made people work a little harder and it was an adventure
for the explorers.

There is a
later folk memory telling about merchant begging for leather to their
Queen since she had no shoes. Maybe be that was one method for getting
cheap leather, skin and other things. The Naked Lady and the motherless
child were early an urge to manhood "get clothes for Her!"

In Europe
the Bronze Age began around 2300 BC and besides the bronzes we clearly
see the cultural flow of slab cists and myths. Together with that came
the script we see on our rocks with my province as exceptional sample.
That shows us also that they were searching for metals in our mountains
and maybe there was "a mission" all over the world "search for the Lady" … which in Egypt meant the pregnant Hathor. In symbolism they "work in the fork".

and the academics have difficulties with the cultural step "down" to the
rural people. That is why they set up labels like "shaman and cult" on
things they do not understand. It is the same phenomenon as when our
ancestors set the Unknown = Midgaard Snake. That is why they use labels
like "shaman" without proof.

In the Indian society I get the impression that there were a chieftain or leader in the tribe and besides were the Medicineman as archetype for solving mainly problems with health that natural could imply psychic health too. Nowadays we would call him healer. I do not think we can set medicineman = shaman in the Indian nations.
They often
interpret figures with horns as shamans. We see horned figures all over
the world in the three millennia before AD. They are archetypes
or deities for managing the cattle and also wild, horned animals. They
do not picture real people but idols and archetypes. Observe that horned
idols were used also in the "high cultures". We can never prove to
which extend real people took the guise of these idols.

Why on
earth should we make differences starting from Egyptian Toth and Seth as
odd beings? If an Egyptian priest took the guise it is quite the same
as when a medicineman and a noid in Scandinavia do the same. In both
cases the task is to make rituals in life. However if we take the word
"medicineman" literally his profession was to be a healer (and not a
spiritual priest). The Egyptian society was complex and the ritual
should satisfy all groups in the land. In the Indian society it is very
simple because everyone was living under the same conditions.

We always meet the Great Spirit
as the greatest deity in the Indian world. In the Catholic Church we
know that the Holly Spirit was created during the discussions about
Trinity in 4th
millennium AD. The original Greek Trinity was Father, Son and the Word.
The Indian
Great Spirit is the unknown and unspoken Mights in nature plus the
gathered knowledge of the particular tribe. In scientific rational
analysis we cannot say that the Great Spirit created it all and that
counts for the Christian holly concepts too. In our science processes
must be measurable but not necessary visible. We cannot measure things
done by deities.

I think the
Greek analysis is right. Words of mankind are the tool of creating man
made things and culture. It would be very convenient if we could blame
some Might if we fail. Often the religious world simplifies too much and
forgets the "law of cause and effect". That is outspoken when
they use the word "Evil" in the meaning of something with existence. If
we are scientific we must analyse what cause the evil deeds. It is
always a case of custom and taste, since evil could be good for the evil
doer. Evil for the man with angle wings is always that he does not gain
from it.

During my
many years in company with our ancestors I have got the impression that
they knew more about essential physics than ordinary people today. The thermodynamics
were automatically involved in their intuitive thinking as soon as they
used space-time as the time concept. They were also cautious about what
effects their doing would have on the nature that was dominions of the

For the
Indian World and society the simplification is sufficient in their rural
world. But many Indians are nowadays living in cities and with the same
problems as the technical world. Then it is not enough to say that
Great Spirit was the starting point. In such case we should see Great
Spirit as the common mind of mankind or the Indian Nation.

I have to
say I sympathises with an old Indian woman talking about living in
symbiosis with nature an such things. It is only that city-dwellers
would not understand such metaphors and words. The old woman does not
know about the world outside her nation. We can tell that in old parts
of the industrialised world old people feels alienation. Before
World War II eight of ten lived rural life, nowadays eight of ten live
in towns and big cities. The past decades I have met many alienated
people and also people searching for their root while local people try
to store as much as possible of the Old World.

There are
many cultural levels and differences in time and space. We have to
transform things to be on level. The main reference is sustainability.
Some people of today live using the same cultural form as their
ancestors thousands of years ago. That is the proof that their culture
is sustainable. I just wonder how long our technical culture will

Another great difference is that at least westerners are practising individualism
and living alienated from society in many ways. For liberal politicians
it is a sin to talk about collectivism and the egalitarian view. They
want to see the world as a jungle with fighting individuals. It is
possible in crowded cities were "tribes" of all kind can fight for the
individual and group.

In the
sparsely populated rural society collectives of families were the only
way of security for all members. That gives the natural egalitarian society
and none is allowed to ride on another. It is not necessary. Naturally
they honour the knowledge of elderly people and specialised persons.
They also honour their ancestors since much of their knowledge is
inherited and belongs to the local environment.

Their life
is based on the year ritual. Depending on the environment they might
occupy a place continuously ambulate between places and maybe follow
their main animals. At Snake River under the falls for instance the coho
salmon spawned both in spring and autumn. It would be easy life there
when it was season …The Nez Perce Indians dwelled in winter downstream
in Hells Canyon and maybe they went to Yellowstone in summer.

Summary conclusions

Both the face and the decoration from this Chinese Shang item shows much similarity compared with the Olmec art
we have too little evidence about times before 1000 BC. Only high and
stony cultures are "on the map" so to speak. That is also why National
Geographic shows us so much about Middle Kingdom in Egypt. When it comes
to Europe the only stony monuments are Stonehenge and sometimes also
Carnac in Bretagne if we should decide from what we see on the agenda.
It also means that we should appreciate only "high culture"

Most of the
world is like an archaeological wilderness. In the subtropics and
tropics nature takes back or covers most of the remains. Then we are
forced to make conclusions from few samples and that is always risky.
The fact is that very few places in the world are explored in this
sense. India and East Asia are little excavated and unknown to
westerners. Americas are big continents and the most fertile parts have
nature as one enemy and mankind as another.

As soon as
we search for occasional or wooden cultures with little remains we see
how little we know. It is not much better in Europe where cultivation
took all remains long before the fairly modern interest for archaeology
and history. Historians are normally only interested in kings and
knights and such things …at least in my lifetime. When archaeologists
seek remains they are fond of gold and "high culture" whatever that is.

That is the
reason why archaeologists are blind for small fragments of evidence.
Most of our scientists in Scandinavia have not yet discovered all the
small symbols among the figures in our rock carvings. It is quite the
same at Snake River that the automatic presumption is that abstract
symbols are "hunting magic" or scribble …and in Scandinavia they
ordinate a shrink to our ancestors. I would not talk with people showing
that kind of attitude against me … neither do our ancestors tell
anything to such persons. I have to tell this and begin the conclusions
this way since I already have met such attitudes.

Now we can
start discussion about dating the rock carvings of Idaho and maybe some
other activities in America and cultural interchange westward. Physical
evidence for interchange is the finds mentioned by Carl Johannessen of
the University of Oregon says American peanuts are found in two
provinces in China dated to 2300 BC.

Next rough evidence is the Indus Culture
with heyday 2600 - 1700 BC and that we can compare the symbols and find
many similarities. We also find the explanation why some of the rock
carvings evidently are made with sharp metal tools. Indus Culture could
produce the necessary metals in third millennium. The oldest bronze
object a knife from China is dated to about 3000 BC. So if China was
transit harbour for the traders they could also get the tools there.

Once we recognise the Indus Script
and some of the celestial figures we can also use them in our dating.
The Urn would be current around 2000 BC and the Bearwatcher around 1700
BC so we can roughly set the heydays of these rock carvings to 2000 -
1700 BC.

The script
on the Thunderbird stone shows very high technical skill and abstraction
in the figures. That is not seen anywhere in America as far as I know.
It is hard to believe that normal hunter-gather-fishing culture would
create a vocabulary like this. There are signs of trials in cursive text
or they have merged figures. That means initially that the symbols were
syllables that would give words when pronounced. There are a few
strings of symbols and that is also sign of organised script.

Only minor
part of the rock carvings are made with deep grooves and made like
direct copies of a script. The rest are made by free hand and mixed with
inventions of their own. We would not wonder about a symbol for
compasses since there is a perfect circle on the Thunderbird rock. But
there is a deep syllable AR known from the Levant and another is a deep
halberd of the type we know from the Alps. Such symbols make the ants
fool around on my baldhead. Hard to draw any conclusions from single

For a wider outlook I have mentioned the Chinese or maybe Japanese connection to the Olmec Culture.
The decoration style is much the same however we have little evidence
about early second millennium in Meso-America and in the Shang Culture. We get different dates but maybe we should date the Shang culture 1700 - 1100 BC. Dr Emily Sano tells:

thus was related to power and divinity. According to legend, King Yu,
founder of China's first dynasty, the Xia, around 2200 BC, had nine
monumental food cauldrons cast to symbolize the nine provinces of his
realm. When the Xia dynasty fell, the nine vessels, the "Auspicious
Bronzes of the State," passed to the victorious Shang dynasty and then,
in the 11th century BC, to the Zhou. In 1976 a bronze vessel was
discovered whose inscription records that it was commissioned only eight
days after the defeat of the Shang and the capture of the Auspicious
Bronzes. These bronzes, however, have not yet been discovered. The
oldest vessels discovered thus far are dated to 1800 BC".

There is
much to be discovered in India, China, Japan and of course South East
Asia that is unknown during those times. Still there is a "tin belt"
over Burma and Thailand so we can expect they were interesting places
for the metallurgists those days.

For the Olmec - Chinese connection I recommend
And for the Shang style and example on
It is easy
to see that Randall must have been exited by the find of the
alabasteregg with Tutankamun's cartouche in 1914 before Carter opened
the tomb. I notice that Randall has read much about the time around
this. Now I found a note about find of Tut's iron dagger:

it was discovered in 1922, the tomb contained more gold than the Royal
Bank of Egypt at the time. Tutankhamen had with him a truly royal
weapon: an iron dagger with a hilt and sheath of gold decorated with
rock crystal. The dagger blade had not rusted in more than 3000 years,
and we do not know how it was forged. A set of 16 small iron chisels was
also buried with the king. This gives some idea of the value of iron at
the time.
Iron was prized very highly
even toward the end of the 2nd millennium BC. The Old Assyrian letters
that discuss the tin trade between Assur and Kültepe also refer to two
metals called amutum and assi'um. Amutum is generally
identified as iron. It could be bought, though its price was 40 times
that of silver, and 400 times more expensive than tin. Head office in
Assur continually urged the branches in Kültepe to look out for
reasonably-priced amutum."
See Chapter 5 Iron Age
It is easy
to see that Randall must have been exited by the find of the
alabaster-egg with Tutankamun's cartouche in 1914 before Carter opened
the tomb. Now I know that the great grandfather of Kathy Kincaid once
owned it … see emeil below under "comment".

I notice that Randall has read much about the time around this. Now I found a note about find of Tut's iron dagger and chisels:
"When it was
discovered in 1922, the tomb contained more gold than the Royal Bank of
Egypt at the time. Tutankhamen had with him a truly royal weapon: an
iron dagger with a hilt and sheath of gold decorated with rock crystal.
The dagger blade had not rusted in more than 3000 years, and we do not
know how it was forged. A set of 16 small iron chisels was also buried
with the king. This gives some idea of the value of iron at the time.
Iron was prized very highly
even toward the end of the 2nd millennium BC. The Old Assyrian letters
that discuss the tin trade between Assur and Kültepe also refer to two
metals called amutum and assi'um. Amutum is generally
identified as iron. It could be bought, though its price was 40 times
that of silver, and 400 times more expensive than tin. Head office in
Assur continually urged the branches in Kültepe to look out for
reasonably-priced amutum."
See Chapter 5 Iron Age
Randall has mentioned that there is plenty of meteoric iron in Rocky
Mountains naturally my "think tank" starts. It is near to think that
they found iron and manufactured it on the place. The lava blocks were
the best place to make a trial with chisels. They had also to try out
the technique by trial and error ... in the mountains there should have
been plenty of wood for the melting and working on the iron.

It took
long time before iron could compete with bronze manufactured by skilled
bronze metallurgists. To get real steel they were forced to develop the
right process to get carbonated iron = steel. It was a good help if iron
was alloyed and meteoric iron has the right alloy from the beginning.
It would be natural that traders and metallurgist were seeking for that
"gold" all over the world. It could finance a long trip and would create
good contacts to royal houses.

We can note
the 16 small iron chisels from Tut's tomb of course. But what does it
mean when a great king get such a gift? Naturally the traders were
interested in selling their product to the pharaoh that was a big
builder. Fort the pharaoh it could improve the work on his buildings.
Naturally he let others do the job but he got the knowledge. If he gave
the alabaster-egg as gift in return the traders could show it to others
and get great reputation. In the end it would be natural to give it to
their source. Since the egg has no use it was just a symbol of good

I come to
think that in the same tomb they found a boomerang wrapped in birch
bark. In some way I am touched when I see these foreign things. The iron
was very expensive gifts as such and a step forward in technology. They
were stored in the same way as the boomerang wrapped in birch-bark. The
value in such things is a kind of valued friendship and we do not know
what the real exchange was. That is why it is natural to see the
alabaster-egg as a gift in return. To give a gift and get gift in return
was a holy principle in old Scandinavian literature and still it is
wise to balance the relation with everyone.

In the tomb
was also a folding chair of the same kind as they found in a Danish
mound from the time of Tut. They have also found a certain type of
bronze sword surely made in Scandinavia and exported to Greece and even
with some find in Egypt. Generally the early type of bronze sword is the
same from India to Scandinavia. This is telling about "world-wide
trade" in Bronze Age so to speak.

I remember
when I first read about it many years ago. I saw the connection and it
gave me one of the first ideas about cultural exchange that we can
prove. In the years I have found many signs of the trade between
Scandinavia and the so-called Old World in south. The Scandinavian rock
carvings show that they imported idea of wagon, chariot, horse, plough,
bronze sickle, to catch octopus in pots, ornaments from Knossos and
more. Generally we see things they could immediately use in their life.
Expensive things had few buyers and were for the little upper class. I
hope future generations will find the same increase in real evidence
about cultural interchange with Americas.

I think it
is time for the metallurgist interested in ancient times to careful
analyse the meteorite iron in the finds from Tut's tomb and compare it
with other known places with much of the free meteorite iron.

archaeologist were sceptical to connection between the Old World an
America. But I think that we have many indications that should be taken
seriously by know. Let me list them as far as I know: The Chinese
connection could have been established by Indian transit traders … rock
carvings of Snake River … Tut's alabaster-egg ... corn-cobs in Indian
temple … tobacco and cocaine mummies … the snake and parrot mythic
symbols … Olmec connection …

indications are so many that even if some of them drop away for some
reason there is plenty left. Generally the economical strong culture
could afford to send expeditions out exploring the world. But even small
populations with guts and skill could sail around most of the world.
They were not depending on much export/ import but on getting the
journey paid. As far as I have seen there are few ships on American
rocks. That could mean that they were not using such vessels and that
would also mean that foreign traders brought American culture to China
for instance.

We should
not underestimate small rural cultures. They were skilled in adapting
what they could use in their environment. That is why it sometimes is
difficult sort out the influences from local culture. We should remember
that a small culture like the Scandinavian became skilled in making
steel and imported that and mercenaries to Rome and later to Carlemagne.

Only if we have an open mind we discover novelty … preconceived ideas are like blindfolds.
Addresses to the author:
Bengt Hemtun
Backegatan 3 B, Mellerud
S-46430 Sweden
phone 046-0530-41925

© Catshaman
Last Updated: 02/22/2011 19:44:12

Here I open for comments and start with professor emeritus Carl L Johannessen of the University of Oregon:
Dear Bengt,
You have done a tremendous amount of thinking and my mental
set from 40 years of studying the subject indicates that you are surely
essentially valid. I find no obvious error. Granted I was reading a
bit fast.

You may find it fascinating to study more on the use of copper in the

Great Lakes area of the U.S. They apparently dug a tremendous amount of
copper. We do not have much of it in the archaeological record of tools
in this hemisphere, but it must have been transported to the Old World.
When you gain insights into its presence, please let me know that too.
Can you make a stone working tool out of copper to do the kind of stone
pecking that you are finding?
Incidentally, Why do you not sign the paper that you write. I do
not find the author in any event. I just presume that it is you, BH.
Good to find a kindred soul.
Best Regards, Carl.
The lack of stone artefacts,
near your sites, could mean that the culture that made them were using
metal and not leaving the previous sort of debris. That is not very
logical, I admit, for the usual condition of tools is associated with
the previous sites.

Have you thought about the fact that if the stone message sites were
worked with metal tools that there should be tiny fragments of the metal
in the stone at the inscription sites. At least if they were made by
softer metals it should occur.

Regards, Carl
Let us hope
that future brings us more knowledge. The disciplines of archaeology
are still young. There is the syndrome that too much money is spent on
the Giza Plateau and little in the Nile Delta or in other places along
the Nile. For instance in Sweden major part of the diggings are made at
the big island Gotland and in the southern corner in Skaane. There they
only find flint mining, while searches for copper and early iron mining
are bound to be outside these areas.

It is the same all over the world. America is a huge area and rural
cultures leave not much for us. In science it is always that we need
good questions to start with. One of them is have they been searching
for metals and precious stones? And if, with whom did they trade?

Hello Bengt,
I read the quote below on your
web site. I have been researching a story of an alleged Egyptian site in
the Grand Canyon of Arizona. I live in Tucson, Arizona. In another
reference I ran across the mention of the Alabaster cartouche you
mention below. This cartouche and it's finder are an important clue to
the mystery I am trying to solve related to the Grand Canyon Story. Any
further information you could provide on the story of the find of the
egg in Idaho would be greatly appreciated. I can tell you that the egg
was found by the great grandfather of a "Kathy Kincaid". It is this
person, or a descendant or family member related to her that I am trying
to contact. If you can help in "any" way, with even the slightest bit
of information on the Idaho find, it would help greatly.
Thank you for your time and I enjoyed your excellent! web site,

Bende 1 Para Vardı.
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Bak Şimdi Seninde 2 bilgin.
Benimde 2 bilgim oldu...


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